John,

Thank you for your response.
There are so many aspects to cover, and so many angles of approach.
These two articles I wrote were primarily in thinking as a response to my lunch, Monday with John K., my former supervisor.
We met at 11:30 and left at 5:00.
At one point he made a comment about the idea that some believe and teach that all will be saved.
I responded that I believe that.
He was shocked and called it a "game changer."
He said he thought it was a dangerous heresy.
So what I wrote was originally for him.
Your points are well taken. Thank you.
I will try to respond (in black) to some of your questions intermixed in your email (in blue).

Harvey



Thanks Harvey.

I can't believe how open I am to this concept than I used to be.
As you know I have left the camp of eternal suffering in hell.
I am leaning toward annihilism and still open to universal reconciliation.
I have a few comments.

I want to encourage you to (to the extent possible) "omit" discussion of the reaction of some people to your understanding.

- Yes, generally I try to keep myself out of it. These two articles are not accessible through my website main pages. I try to be more careful with things I post to the world.

in the same way, those who are not in your camp should not be quick to call you a heretic.

- John didn't 'call me a heretic,' just that he thought the doctrine was heretical. It really doesn't bother me to be called that. But it saddens me when someone closes down, often so quickly.

There is so much angry rhetoric in every aspect of life these days.
We are all so quick to point out that someone else is wrong and this usually opens the door to closing someone else's mind.
No wonder there is so little unity and denominationalism.

- So true.

I am as guilty of doing this as anybody.

- Same here.

Second thought.
Is this an essential element of the Christian faith?

- The way I see it, when a Christian believes in eternal punishment, their attitude is affected so strongly in multiple ways:
- 1) Their view of people is an 'us' and 'them.' They can hardly help feeling that they made the right choice, and some didn't. (There are many flavors of that.)
- 2) Their focus, if they even have it, is to get as many 'saved' as quickly as possible. The 'unity of the body' is left in the dust.
So if we rightly understood God's ultimate salvation of all, we would have more respect and kindness toward our enemies, knowing that one day we will be side by side fully reconciled. So let us live in a way that that reconciliation comes more easily (if that makes sense.)

Is one of the two camps properly labeled "heretic" if we find out some day that one party is wrong.

- Well, whatever is true, is true, and whatever is wrong, is wrong, but we should speak the truth in love. Calling someone a heretic, I don't think is love.

Isn't unity of spirit more important than the doctrine on this issue?

- Unity depends on the truth. Without truth, unity is impossible. But let us not be the ones making the division. If some leave because they believe differently, well let them go, but don't push them out.

I think you can make your case even stronger by focusing on the objections to universalism.

- Yes, first show the truth from the scriptures, then answer the questions that arise. True.

I don't have the time now to look at this.
But let me encourage you to look at the websites that give verses that support the "non" universal idea.

- Oh, there are many! That is, they need to be understood for the truth in them too. I have much to say about them. Do you still have the paper I left about 'twins' in the Bible? That gives answers to quite a bit of this question. What is annihilated, and 'remembered no more' is the 'firstborn' (old nature) in each of us. Our born again life (the second born of the twins in each of us) lives forever. So that is where annihilation fits in. And the fire of hell, is the experiences we go through in this life, and more so in the next, for those who have not 'worked out their own salvation' in this life. That fire is a refining fire, to cause us to 'put to death' our members:

Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
(Colossians 3:5)

If Christians don't 'crucify the flesh' in this time, while they are alive now, they will be the branches that are cut off and thrown into the fire. That is the refiners fire.

I am a bit bothered by some of the verses that talk about destruction.
If no one is going to be destroyed or annihilated, why are we told that the wages of sin is death, if in fact, no one will experience death from their sin.
The argument is that all of us will escape the wages of sin, but if so, why is it mentioned, when in fact, there will be no death from sin.

- Well, um... no death? Well the death rate is still 100%, last I checked. :) I think, perhaps that isn't quite what you wanted to ask.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
(Romans 6:23)

"Precious in the sight of the Lord Is the death of His saints."
(Psalm 116:15)

Consider another possible understanding of this verse; We please the Lord when we choose now to carry our cross, put to death our members... and crucify the flesh. That is precious in the sight of the Lord. Make sense?

Why did the disciples die for their faith?
If all were going to be reconciled anyway, they did not need to preach the gospel so vigorously that it cost them their lives?

- Several things here... to truly follow Christ costs us our lives.

"For whoever desires to save his life (psuche, soul-life) will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it."
(Matthew 16:25)

But more to the point, how are they reconciled?

Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
(2 Corinthians 5:18)

The way that God will reconcile the world is through those who give their lives (give up their natural plans, etc.) to preach reconciliation to the world.

It just does not quite fit that they had to suffer to this extent for people who really did not have to know the gospel now.
The "lost" would get it figured out later.

- Continuing the answer:

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach unless they are sent?
As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
(Romans 10:14-15)

2 Peter 2 has a great deal of verbage about destruction of the wicked.
2 Peter 2:12?
If I had more time I would get there are many more verses that warn us about falling away from the faith and destruction.
Can't we just ignore all of that teaching if it will never happen?

- First notice what Peter says at the beginning of that chapter:

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
(2 Peter 2:1)

So the ones who Peter is talking about are 'believers' (in quotes) 'Christian teachers' who teach 'destructive heresies.' There are 'Christian' teachers who have never been born again, or, being born again, are still infants under the deception of their predecessors. They are teaching according to their fleshly mind. This is the 'firstborn' (of the twins). And yes that old man nature will be utterly destroyed.

"But these, like natural brute beasts" This is the 'natural man.'

To the builders Paul warns:

For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
(1 Corinthians 3:11-15)

These 'builders' (teachers) building with heresies, will have their works burned up, and their old natural fleshly nature destroyed also in the fire, but they will be saved 'through fire.'

Until I can understand more about the warnings about sin, and why there are relevant, I can't make a commitment to universalism.

- The warnings in the New Testament are primarily to 'believers.'

For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
(1 Peter 4:17)

Judgment begins with us, because it is through us that God has chosen to reconcile the world to Himself, "according to the power that works in us":

Now to Him who is able
to do exceedingly abundantly
above all that we ask or think,
according to the power that works in us,
to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus
into all generations of the age of the ages.
Amen.
(Ephesians 3:20-21 with my improvements in translation.)

It sure sounds good and I would like to believe it.

John



(2019/12/07 My response.)